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By TVTechnology
#1114018
I think it's quite simple.

If you are old, you get stuck in your 'ways' you hark back to 'when I was a lad' you refer to times past, that can never be again. That is why pensioners in the main (assuming also the highest readership of the Daily Mail) - voted out. Rose tinted spectacles.

Now the majority of younger generations voted in. Why, perhaps they look more to the future, positivity - jobs, opportunities between borders used to seeing more integration - perhaps dare I SAY we were all a little more open-minded when younger.

So irrespective of the EU overall arguments - an older generation has decided the path for the generations after them?

I'm not entirely comfortable with that - after all, you only have to make a few BS comments about immigration and NHS core to pensioners and hey ho - you've turned the UK's economy upon it's head.

There is a complete lack of understanding on so many levels, it's difficult to know where to begin. What I do know, is the UK has been at peace & grown very well financially within the EU trade mechanism and that is why UK is (was) in a good position we are in now in BECAUSE OF THE EU TRADING TERMS - To turn your back and walk headlong into the unknown, is already impacting UK business, jobs and large long term investment, is just not thought through. Surely better to work within to fix, rather than to wipe 15+ years off your economy, as that's how long if it goes well, it will take to get everything predicted to back in order! So many unknowns, with the irony being quite a high percentage of those who voted out, won't even live to see the long term effect of their vote.

Still not much any of us can do now - other than hope for the best. Perhaps some things should be more carefully thought through before presented for a vote, this as it's panning out has made the UK go from a relative powerhouse within the EU, to a secondary trading partner with the EU, but on the basis we can negotiate better elsewhere and adds up to more - lots of hope, wrapped up in nothing - sounds like religion to me :wink:
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By Sheff_Blade
#1114025
TVTechnology wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:54 am
I think it's quite simple.
You just know that anything that begins with that sentence has got to be a simplistic load of gross generalisations, and unfounded assumptions, wrapped-up in a 'I-know-better-than-you-and-if-you-disagree-then-you-must-be-thick' attitude.

Firstly you dismiss ALL of the population older than 50 (60?) as senile old racists when some might argue that at least some of them have wisdom with age and experience. Some of us older ones even remember the day when the EU was a free-trade area not a bureaucratic kingdom lead by drunken idiots such as Junker.

Secondly you seem to live live in an ideal little world where the EU is an economic paradise and leaving is equivalent to jumping off a high cliff. There is as much uncertainty and economic crisis in the EU. Germany the power-house of europe in recession; surely not? Greece still a basket case and Italy heading there. Spain in the doldrums, etc etc. The EU budget is at crisis point even without Brexit; there is little doubt we would lose our rebate even if we stayed, and the idiots want to spend even more on an EU army!
By TVTechnology
#1114031
Sheff - you get so emotional - time of the month ? :wink:

We probably do need to spend money on an integrated army and cyber security for certain - at this stage we don't even really now how much external influence affected the Brexit - Russia, has seemingly done a marvellous job in disrupting the west and turning us against each other. How much did this play a part in the feeling of the country with Brexit - we will never know the real truth, other than they have tried to manipulate all of us.

Social media has become a weapon, where those who are crying 'FAKE NEWS' are the purveyors of it.

Sheff - No, of course, I don't think everyone who does not share the same opinion as me is either a moron or a racist. There are however morons and racists out there & that's a fact. :wink: Unfortunately, they get to vote too.

Brexit, will just help accelerate stress, bad behaviour towards each other, separatism - but it's just a reflection, like Mr. Trump of where we really are at presently - spiralling downwards.

It seems very little positive politicians out there looking to bring us together as planet and a species - next arms race, is proceeding. Why :?: So the Americans can make more guns which end up in the hands of their enemies - and around the merry go round we go.
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By Sheff_Blade
#1114055
TVTechnology wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:34 pm
Sheff - you get so emotional - time of the month ? :wink:

We probably do need to spend money on an integrated army and cyber security for certain - at this stage we don't even really now how much external influence affected the Brexit - Russia, has seemingly done a marvellous job in disrupting the west and turning us against each other. How much did this play a part in the feeling of the country with Brexit - we will never know the real truth, other than they have tried to manipulate all of us.

Social media has become a weapon, where those who are crying 'FAKE NEWS' are the purveyors of it.

Sheff - No, of course, I don't think everyone who does not share the same opinion as me is either a moron or a racist. There are however morons and racists out there & that's a fact. :wink: Unfortunately, they get to vote too.

Brexit, will just help accelerate stress, bad behaviour towards each other, separatism - but it's just a reflection, like Mr. Trump of where we really are at presently - spiralling downwards.

It seems very little positive politicians out there looking to bring us together as planet and a species - next arms race, is proceeding. Why :?: So the Americans can make more guns which end up in the hands of their enemies - and around the merry go round we go.
Cheeky!

So talking of fake news, the EU Army wasn't a figment of imagination in our rabid, Brexiteer minds? Another remainer lie perhaps? Or just fake news?
By rspltd
#1114060
An interesting post by TV Technology but it relies on information that is dubious to say the least. He refers to the old being stuck in their ways (surely then they would want to stay in the Eu?) and then alleges that the young voted to leave. Where does this information come from bearing in mind that no-one was asked their age at the polling station.? The culprit appears to be Youguv that well known data mining company – the same one who two hours before the referendum finished were predicting a landslide for Remain. They interviewed 250 people in the south of England of whom about 50 could be described as young people. Of those that responded, there was a small majority in favour of leaving and so Yougov’s computers extrapolated the results over the four nations of the UK and came up with this erroneous conclusion. They pay £50 and you can join their voting panel and take part in their surveys which begs the question how representative are those people who have joined. Nevertheless Yougov keep the money rolling in and according to them repel Fake News!!!!
So lets look at some of the other statements – “the UK has been at peace & grown very well financially within the EU trade mechanism”. I wonder if the approximately £450 billion that the UK has paid since she joined could have been put to better use in the UK? For those of us with a slightly longer memory we remember the wine lakes, the butter mountain , the olive acreage scandal, the inefficient Cap and the scams are still coming :

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/0 ... -national/

I wonder if one asked a young person in Spain or someone from Greece if they had benefitted from the Eu despite all the money that has been thrown at them, what their answer would be?? There will still be trading with the Eu (although if they put their current Trade Commissioner in charge of it – she is a Swedish Political Science lecturer) it could take 7 yers which seems to be the average for an agreement. Given this latest report from a German economic think tank I think Mrs Merkel will be most interested in getting one signed and sealed.

https://www.thelocal.de/20190211/no-dea ... g-to-study

Where the UK will be at an advantage will be that it will be able to make deals with the rest of the world. I don’t think it will mind be a secondary trading nation alongside the likes of the USA, India, China and Japan.

TV T also said the UK has gone from a relative powerhouse within the EU, to a secondary trading partner with the EU. Once the UK had a veto but now most decisions are taken by majority. One only has to watch the excellent series by the BBC on the last 10 years of the EU to see how the recipient Eastern bloc countries were threatened with loss of subsidies if they didn’t take what was perceived as their share of immigrants. Of course those people they did take have now got EU citizenship and have moved to the richer EU countries under free movement. Blackmail is still alive and well in the EU.

Finally we turn to the influence of the EU Court of Justice. With an ever increasing backlog of cases (of which Germany seems to have the most) it continues to interpret the law rather than administer it. A little known fact is that the judges and their advocates are immune from legal prosecution both whilst they are in the job and for perpetuity thereafter.

So will the EU blink first I believe so. There is pressure not only from Germany and France but Ireland. Norway in particular is concerned as 60% of it’s fish catch is caught in UK waters . Britain has nothing to fear but with Italy in recession and the German economy heading that way, the EU will do all they can to get their hands on the £39 billion that is being dangled in front of them
By rspltd
#1114071
I neglected to add this published letter by Stephen Bush, Emeritus Professor of Manufacture, University of Manchester.
Regarding the economic benefits of EU membership of the single market, the latest office for National Statistics figures for trade for 2106 give a Uk goods (mainly manufacturers ) trade deficit with the EU of £95.6bn, having grown remorselessly from £5bn in 1993, the year the single market was introduced. Over the same period of 24 years the U.S. grew it’s goods exports to the EU by over 40%, in constant dollar (real) price terms, without any special access, just paying the tariffs on its goods while conforming to EU standards. In the same period the Uk, with all the supposed benefits of single market access, increased its goods exports by a tiny 5% on the same constant dollar price terms.

A different view altogether.
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By Sheff_Blade
#1114648
A survey by ComRes found that 44 per cent of the public now believe the UK should leave without a deal if Brussels refuses to make any further concessions.

Perhaps now IS the time for a second referendum after all! Mr Starmer and co need to be careful what they wish for.
By rspltd
#1114662
I would caution relying too heavily on the findings of any polling organisation these days particularly one whose fieldwork is conducted totally on line. Polling companies have a problem. The old routes of one to one questioning and polling over the telephone are no longer used. Companies like YouGov (and I think Comres) give money to people who join their voting panel and are willing to spend time completing a minimum number of surveys online. This method takes out an enormous demographic of people of people who don’t have/use the internet , those who are not governed by the internet like a lot of others, and those who can’t be bothered. I would question whether the sort of people that would be likely to want £50 compensation for this expenditure of time or who would be bothered to spend this amount of time on their computers are representative of voters in the UK. Furthermore the companies have no way of knowing where the people are based in the world – other than asking and we know how truthful people can be on the internet whilst hiding behind their keyboards. The companies have an advantage because none of their results are tested. YouGuv for example claims on its website that it’s last successful (and thus accurate polling result) was in 2014. You will recall that YouGuv two hours before the referendum ended, were claiming a massive victory for remain.
There were two polls in the Sunday papers. ComRes had a poll conducted for BrexitExpress (a pro-Brexit pressure group) reported in the Sunday Telegraph.
The Sunday Telegraph headlined (circulation figures are dropping so a good headline sells lots more papers) on a finding that 44% of people agreed with a statement that “If the EU refuses to make any more concessions, the UK should leave without a deal”, suggesting rather more support for no deal than almost all other polls. A lot of scepticism is needed here – agree/disagree statements are a rather suboptimal approach towards asking polling that tend to produce a bias in the direction of the statement. The problem is they give only a single side of the argument – the question only asked people if they agreed with a statement supporting leaving with no deal in those circumstances. It did not offer people alternative options like a delay, or accepting the deal, or having a referendum. One can imagine that a poll asking “In the event that the EU does not agree to further changes to the deal, what do you think should happen?” would have produced rather different answers. Indeed, later on the survey asked which outcomes people thought would be best for the UK economy and best for UK democracy, which produced rather more typical results. If you further examine the ‘polling results’ there are a number of questions where they only received a 60% response. The results were then finally ‘weighted’ in an attempt to try and make them more representative of the actual voters. This meant that those age groups with the most responses (unsurprisingly between 18 and about 30) were adjusted and those age ranges with less responses (mainly those over 50) were tweaked upwards. It also appears some changes were made in respect of the responses from the various countries that comprise the UK.
Note also that the Sunday Telegraph’s claim that the poll showed an increase in support for No Deal is not accurate – the poll back in January asked a differently worded question (it was structured as support/oppose, rather than an agree/disagree statement, and was in a grid along with other options) so they are not directly comparable.
I’m afraid the answer is nobody knows and any amount of ‘polling’ will not change this. Putting aside the political motivation of most of the papers there does seem to be a hardening of the attitude towards the EU – they knew what the issue was and have strenuously declared that it is not their intention to use the backstop and then, even then, intend not to use it as for as little time as possible. That in my book gives them the incentive to say that it can be withdrawn from unilaterally. Stubbornly they refused to do this even though the likelihood would have been that Brexit would have been passed.
Now they are facing the UK leaving on WTO rules which will be to no-ones benefit but will hurt the EU (and particularly Ireland ironically) more than the UK. There could be another referendum which, given the actions of the EU, is likely to be a resounding leave (of course I only gather opinion from people who are like minded). What I suspect they are hoping for, and is the most unlikely scenario, is that the UK will return to the fold and continue to pay in the eye watering sums as previously to enable them to continue with their vanity projects and dole out the money to the 21 countries whose noses are in the feeding trough like some medieval squire.
By Aviator
#1114703
and continue to pay in the eye watering sums as previously to enable them to continue with their vanity projects and dole out the money to the 21 countries whose noses are in the feeding trough like some medieval squire.

Are you sure about this? I have just received my Tax Code notice from HMRC for 2019/2020 which includes a 'Pie Chart' showing how the tax I paid last year was spent by the government. The smallest expenditure item shown was the UK's contribution to the EU. The next item was 'Overseas Aid' which was 80% greater than our EU contributions.
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By Sheff_Blade
#1114737
jimny1 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:38 pm
Here is a tribute to the greatest clown in history , that has put the UK in turmoil, causing billions in costs and job losses and has now disappeared off the face of the earth , leaving useless may hem in charge , enjoy
https://www.facebook.com/susan.edwards. ... 566702481/
You have an interesting concept of turmoil. Growth rates that are the envy of the rest of europe including Germany, high rates of employment, public finance in the best shape since Brown left us bankrupt, positive wage growth in real terms.
By jimny1
#1114739
Sheff
The man was totally arrogant believing the people would vote to stay in europe , when he realised his enormous gaff he did a houdini, leaving T mayhem in charge to totally mess everything up further
The fiasco has come to a head now and the countrys fate is back in the hands of europe asking them if we can extend leaving by 3 months in exchange for another vote on the referendum, or that is what the experts are saying will happen
In the meantime companies have been pulling out of the UK with future job losses in the pipeline , brexit has already cost billions and nothing has changed on the immigration front, which was an overiding decision in the yes vote
Then you have that idiot trump waiting in the wings , saying he wants a trade deal with the UK if a no deal brexit occurs, a deal that would only favour the USA , flooding the Uk with hershey bars and chlorinated chicken etc, what would we be allowed to export, probably golfing equipment for trumps personal use
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By Sheff_Blade
#1114772
All of the europhiles were arrogant. They, Clegg, Mandelson, Blair etc, said there was no need for a referendum because they would simply extole the virtue of EU membership and the public would vote to remain like sheep. Their arrogance backfired.

Arrogance was also plain to see in the EU itself. I believe the way Merkel, Drunker and the others treated Cameron when all he wanted was some little sign to strengthen the remain case in the referendum, had a psychological effect on even labour voters, who saw it as a snub to the UK in general.

If the result had been an overwhelming majority to remain then you could have argued it was a waste of time, but whatever Cameron's motive, the referendum result proved that we needed to have one.
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By Sheff_Blade
#1114819
jimny1 wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:38 pm
Here is a tribute to the greatest clown in history , that has put the UK in turmoil, causing billions in costs and job losses and has now disappeared off the face of the earth , leaving useless may hem in charge .....
More economic news today highlighting the current BREXIT 'turmoil'. Unemployment continuing to fall, wage-growth continuing to rise.
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