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#1108161
Hello

I noticed a few rumors are circulating that changes that could affect my kids ( who both work in bars and restaurants here) were scheduled for 2019. I was told that all workers post 2019 would need residencia and a contract and a permit in order to work here legally. I would imagine that to work here legally pre 2019 that a contract was essential anyway. Can anyone shed any light on this. Surely the only people who should be worried are those who work illegally. Both my kids are residents and on contracts.

MJ
#1108162
There are thousands upon thousands of non-EU citizens currently working, fully legally, throughout Spain. No doubt after Brexit is finally concluded, then British citizens will be required to meet the same sort of criteria.

In the meantime, Brexit is far from concluded, and Spain (and the rest of the member states) like the UK will make their plans for how employment is to be dealt with known to the public. Until then, who knows - one step at a time, and less energy expended on what the man in the pub said.

Oh, I should add, I voted remain and still remain convinced that we should remain.
#1108169
One of the problems with BREXIT is it seems to throw up many questions to which nobody appears to have any answers.

There seems to be a tentative agreement that UK citizens already resident/working in a EU country prior to Brexit will continue to enjoy these rights after March 2019, but only in the country where they are currently resident. They will not be permitted automatically to take up residency/work in another EU country after Brexit without going through the same process that a citizen of a non-EU country would undergo. How will this affect a worker based, say, in Spain whose job requires him to work in several other EU countries? For example, an Easyjet pilot with UK citizenship based (and living with his family) in Madrid may be required to conduct flights between Spain and Germany. This could mean he is deemed to be working in another EU country (Germany) without a work permit. Would such an individual need to obtain a work permit for every other EU country to which he is required to fly? On the basis of what has been agreed provisionally, this pilot may be restricted to flying internally between Spanish airports and flights between UK airports and Spain. Presumably, the same restrictions may also apply to cabin crew.

Please note that flights conducted by UK pilots between UK airports and EU airports after Brexit are not what I am referring to in the above paragraph. Assuming some sort of aviation deal is reached between the UK and the EU, British pilots could conduct reciprocal flights between UK airports and any EU destination. However, problems might arise for a Madrid based British pilot who is rostered to fly Madrid to Paris, Paris to Rome and then Rome back to Madrid.

The most worrying aspect of Brexit is number of unanswered questions and uncertainties that surround the whole process nearly two years after the EU referendum.
#1108172
To answer Aviator, this is why airlines such as easyJet are setting up at least one subsidiary office and company to cater for such matters, and why Ryanair is doing the same in the UK.

Everything will the depend on what flying rights are granted after Brexit comes in to being. At the moment, it would appear that both the UK and the EU are envisaging that Open Skies will continue as now, and that means that a pilot (regardless of whether he is Spanish, British, an EU citizen or a non-EU citizen will be permitted to fly patterns as you describe.

Very much in the same way that thousands of pilots currently do - they fly to one country, hand the aircraft over to another crew then fly the next plane landing the next day on to where their first plane had gone on to the previous day. It is not, and has never been considered working in that country when all you do is land an aircraft and then take off.

Any more than a truck driver who delivers a load from abroad, and then picks up another load to deliver into the country that they came from in the first place.
#1108173
Mr Jones wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:19 pm
Thanks old boy but these are rumours coming from people I know who have been attending the consular meetings.

Thanks.


As Brexit hasn't even been agreed yet, the consular meetings have all stressed that what they know is only based on the then current proposals. Those proposals seem to be changing by the minute and appear to be far from being agreed. So the final rulings, etc. are likely to be very different.
#1108174
Further to my response to Aviator, having ferreted around in my memory box, I seem to recall that the only time that something similar to what you queried about happened along time ago in the USA. It was when Concorde was eventually granted permission to fly into JFK in New York.

The plan was for the plane to land in JFK, refuel and then fly (subsonically) on to San Francisco and/or Los Angeles. However, this became a political hotcake, so a compromise was reached whereby British pilots flew across the Atlantic, and then American pilots flew across to the West Coast and back.

The flights to the West Coast were short-lived.
#1108175
Mr Jones wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 3:19 pm
Thanks old boy but these are rumours coming from people I know who have been attending the consular meetings.

Thanks.
These rumours are very likely being spread by Remoaners--Mr Jones --Don't panic Don't panic !!!! :lol:

A little bit of commonsense needs to be applied when we hear these stories or indeed read about them in the MSM !!
#1108177
Oldboy:
Everything will the depend on what flying rights are granted after Brexit comes in to being. At the moment, it would appear that both the UK and the EU are envisaging that Open Skies will continue as now, and that means that a pilot (regardless of whether he is Spanish, British, an EU citizen or a non-EU citizen will be permitted to fly patterns as you describe.
The OpenSkies agreement allows EU and US/Canadian airlines to fly direct between airports in each other's territories, it does not allow US airlines to provide intra-EU flights between EU cities. If that were the case, the largest LoCo carrier in Europe now would probably be SouthWest airlines, not Ryanair. Also, it does not allow US pilots unfettered access to fly for EU airlines, or EU citizens to fly for US airlines.

Easyjet has established a company in Austria to enable it to continue providing intra-EU flights, which as a UK company, it would not be allowed to do after Brexit. Providing all its aircrew are EU citizens, it will be able to continue operating as before. The point of my post was, that as things stand at the moment, British pilots may be restricted to flying sectors where one of the destination/origin airports is in the UK.

Adding to all this uncertainty is the question of whether the UK will remain in EASA after Brexit and, if not, what are the implications. See link:

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/tr ... safety.pdf

Another possible aviation problem that may arise after Brexit is whether flights from UK airports will still be allowed to overfly Russian territory in order to reach destinations in China, Japan, South Korea,etc. Airlines in EU member states currently enjoy Russian overflying rights under a EU/Russia agreement. For example, Finnair flies these routes as it is an EU member state whereas Russia does not permit Norwegian to do so as it is not a EU member state. Given the current frosty state of UK/Russian relations it would not surprise me if overflight rights for flights from UK airports are withdrawn post Brexit. This would require passengers from the UK to take a flight to a EU airport first to make a connection with flights to the Orient.
#1108180
Aviator has raised very valid concerns based on the evidence as of current agreements but I have every confidence these will be addressed comprehensively in the negotiations --Brexit is a process--that is why we have a transition agreement. Hopefully any hiccups will be minor and easily remedied.

There is a lot of posturing and scaremongering at the moment but this is only done to get an advantage over the UK and should be ignored --to those who have to do this as part of their day job --- I am sure are aware of the intricacies of EAS / CAA etc etc and other related legislation/standing agreements and will deal with them before Brexit happens. At this stage anything else is just speculation and the actual solutions could well be different to anything we can predict based on current facts on the table. Negotiations by definition is a moving feast and all we currently have is a snapshot view and not the final position.

I am sure that the UK finalized BREXIT agreement with the EU will address all these issues satisfactorily without having to accept ECJ supremacy or having to accept FOM. :D

Rest Assured--as it is written--so it shall be done !! :wink:
#1108182
Thanks Old boy,

My kids have nothing to worry about, but I sort of knew that. Do people of a working age who are non Europeans currently have to have proof of income and private medical insurance in place before they can apply for residencia here? Once again the rumour factory suggests it will be the same criteria for Brits post 2019, but who knows.

MJ
#1108183
Mr Jones wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:49 pm
Thanks Old boy,

My kids have nothing to worry about, but I sort of knew that. Do people of a working age who are non Europeans currently have to have proof of income and private medical insurance in place before they can apply for residencia here? Once again the rumour factory suggests it will be the same criteria for Brits post 2019, but who knows.

MJ
Yes, non-EU citizens require medical insurance and a proof of income which is considerably higher than EU citizens. Last I heard it was about $32,000 a year for a couple. They would also need a work permit.

In each of the consular briefs I've been to and one which included the mayor of Alicante, the consensus was to formalise your status with residency and consider permanent residency (one of the boxes you can tick after you've been here 5 years). It was those without formal residency that things may change for.

However, each meeting ended with them not knowing what would happen until a deal was agreed between UK and the EU.

The Minister for the Cabinet is currently in a meeting with the Spanish Foreign Secretary to discuss ongoing reciprocal agreements after Brexit.

This is a press statement issued but doesn't really say a lot:
The Minister for the Cabinet Office David Lidington MP visited Madrid today, where he met the Spanish Foreign Secretary Alfonso Dastis to talk about the deep bilateral relationship between the UK and Spain and to reiterate the UK’s commitment to forge even greater ties after the UK leaves the European Union.

The Ministers discussed the practical implications of the UK’s departure, including for Gibraltar where the priority remains to provide certainty to the thousands of people and businesses affected. Mr Lidington reiterated that the UK is confident that by engaging in regular conversations with the Government of Gibraltar and our EU partners - including Spain - we will find a way forward that benefits everyone living and working in the region.

The discussion also covered current foreign policy issues including Russia, the Iran nuclear deal, and the situation in Venezuela. The two Ministers recognised that the people of Spain and the UK have close ties, and that the two nations are major partners in trade. Mr Lidington underlined that the British Government is committed to maintaining existing levels of close cooperation in the future and said that we will also continue to work together to keep our citizens safe.

Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office, David Lidington said:


Today I had a constructive meeting with Spanish Foreign Secretary Alfonso Dastis. The UK and Spain are friends and allies with a long history together, and we are looking forward to tightening those bonds even further.

We have made significant progress in our negotiations to leave the EU so far, and we are confident that we can find a way forward together that is to the benefit and shared prosperity of both ourselves and the European Union.

We want to be ambitious about the future relationship with the EU we are seeking, in both our economic and security partnerships. I am convinced that with our shared goodwill, creativity and focus, we will overcome the challenges ahead.


The United Kingdom and Spain are close partners in NATO and United Nations, among numerous international organisations, and the commercial relationship between both countries rose to 43 billion pounds in 2016. Nearly 19 million British tourists visited Spain in 2017 and around 300,000 British people are residents, while almost 200,000 Spanish people live in the UK.
#1108184
People were lied to?
So those that voted leave were lied to and those that voted remain were told the absolute truth, and Osborne and his cohorts were waiting for the Pope to Canonise them for bringing the gospel according to call me Dave to the attention of the UK electorate :oops:
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